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Boro's Production Line - Is it still working?


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So last night we saw without fanfare and ceremony the departure of Jason Steele to Blackburn and Seb Hines to Coventry so that they could pursue their careers elsewhere due to being surplas to current requirements.

 

This prompted me to think about our famed academy and the hopes of the past that we would see a continual production of home grown talent that would save Boro oodles of money or to generate loads of dosh when the big boys came in to buy our talented players.

 

But on face values it has not worked out that way for Boro has it?

 

This is no way meant as an attack on what is a brilliant academy with the facilities and leadership which is recognised throughout the land so let me make that clear straight away but something is not quite right and I can not put my finger on it so hopefully with a discussion and debate we all might be clearer as to what is going on player production wise.

 

As it stands right now after the recent activity we really only have Reach and Gibson who are and will be part and parcel of the first team squad and the likes of Fewster, Luke Williams, Atkinson on the edges subject to circumstances with the first team squad but in all likelyhood we know that once again some will be sent out on loan.

 

Apart from Downing and Jinky and Bennett we have not received or had big money offers for many of our ex Academy players and so many drifting away to lower league clubs where they are soon forgotten about and in my opinion never seen again as a much improved player fufilling their initial potential.

 

Powlay I know has made comments regarding the pros and cons of yearly batches of young players getting pro contracts and has highlighted to a degree ones to watch but with all the talent at their disposal it really does seem to me that there are very few that come along and we can say "he looks a good player" and becomes a firm favourite with the fans

 

So is it still working for Boro as a club and should we not be concerned that fewer and fewer are breaking into the first team and going onto bigger and better things?

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Utilising the academy doesn't seem to be a priority for señor Karanka. The debate, I suppose, is whether we as a club see the academy as part of our make up and whether we should be making a concerted effort to give our juniors a chance in the 1st team.

 

This is professional football club and we play to win. Not taking the opportunity to bring in better players than what we currently have at our disposal is foolish.

 

Having said that, the players we have brought in over the last few years, in many cases, have been no better than what we've had come through our academy. It's a fine balancing act and the pursuit of premier league football has probably pushed the priority of incorporating the academy in to the club, further down the pecking order and I can understand that.

 

The Steele debacle however sticks in the throat. Giving away our prized England U21 goalkeeper for nothing had soured this window for me, particularly when you see what's left behind in that position.

 

You have to wonder what might have happened to Ben Gibson had his uncle not owned the club.

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I've always been of the philosophy that if they are good enough they're old enough and they'd be getting their game with us. Over the past few seasons I'd comfortably say that we've simply not had the players coming through who are capable of playing in a promotion challenging team.

I still think the academy is doing the right job, since our players are going on to be professional footballers, however, I think the overall quality of the players is not quite up there with what we were producing before and there are several factors involved.

 

Firstly, Downing, Johnson and co had the pleasure of working with some top players and I think bringing in those quality foreigners has a positive influence on young players in training. We haven't had that for some time now.

 

Secondly, regardless of how good the academy is, we're talking about unpredictable circumstances which mean players who were chosen at 12 may not progress once they reach 17 or players who look to be extremely promising at 17/18 don't progress. Some of this can be helped by teaching them how to be a pro but it's also down to the individual.

 

I do also think it is down to opportunities, but that it is harder to throw youngsters in when the players around them are average at best. Young lads can have all the talent they want but they also need support on the pitch and I think we've had such weak teams, mentally, over the years that the young lads can't build on their raw talent in the team because we can't carry potential, we need 11 players fighting.

 

I also think we've made poor use of the loan system for quite a few of our young lads, who I think we've held back by hoping they'd be part of the first team squad but never quite giving them solid time in the team to develop.

 

Luke Williams should have been out on loan at 18 and 19 instead of playing a handful of games per season. He's now 21 and only has about 30 first team games under his belt and while he has ability, he still lacks something.

 

Ben Gibson on the other hand has been out on loan, played 3 times as many first team games and is ready for our first team.

 

From what I've seen of Fewster I'm impressed, not just by ability but by his application on the pitch too. I was impressed by Bennett in the pre-season friendly and we know that Bryn Morris is highly thought of. There are also other younger lads with potential so hopefully we'll see a new batch of players with the potential to go all the way in football.

 

There is no guarantee though and I think it's just one of those things with so many variables that we cannot guarantee top players coming through no matter how much is invested in the academy.

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I wonder how much of it stems from Karanka wanting success NOW and his ambition possibly dictating how long he plans to stick around at the boro. Talented youngsters will need game time to develop and it might be akin to sacrificing performances in the short term for the long term and if Karanka isn't planning to stick around in the long term, it will make no sense for him to blood youngsters who have potential but cannot do the job NOW.

 

The way I see it, there are only two types of managers that blood youngsters these days:

1) Managers that have little money to spend, thus they invest in cheaper youngsters and their potential and try to nurture them. e.g. Ajax

2) Players who plan to stick around long term AND have some reasonable confidence that their job is not at risk in the short term e.g. ***ne Wenger

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The origin of a player is not important, the quality is.

Whilst the joy of 'one of our own' is great and should they be sold the profit even greater the actual need is for the players to reach the standard required. I believe that over hype and a lack of actual talent has meant the 'production line' has stalled, with the arrival of Gibson I believe that will boost the youth products morale and increase their efforts to make the grade. With Morris, Fewster, Jones & Cooke coming through, with the right application and development (loans to the right level/teams) I think they'll restart the production line.

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Sorry DS i couldnt disagree more

Gibson williams fewster in the squad right now

Weve just got money for hines smallwood burgess main ( no matter how small an amount)

Within weeks we will almost certainly have quite a few players at div 1-2 sides on loan

We have more youngsters in international teams than almost anyone

 

In anyones language that is a huge success

Compare us to say man utd who go out and buy a huge percentage of there youth team and there success in comparison isnt vastly greater than ours

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I don't think much has changed to be honest in terms of what has come through.

 

I think the very best will always come through at a club like ours; we can't afford to do otherwise.

 

I think one of the things that helped the 2004 (or so) group was that they were coming in and playing with a better class of players who set higher personal standards to try and emulate.

 

One thing that might not always be appreciated is that they probably had the best coaching team at first team level that we've ever had.

 

As much as you can talk about money I think we've done okay in creating players from that period; Downing, Morrison, Cattermole, Wheater, Brunt, Grounds, Jones, Taylor, Johnson, Bennett, McMahon are all at the same level as us or above currently.

 

The job of the academy isn't just to make us money; it's about us not having to sign players at the same time so take the fees we got for any of the above and then factor in what you'd have needed to buy their quality in transfer fees as well.

 

I have a theory about where we started to slide. Under McClaren we had a top tier of players, the stars if you will. They were then backed up by the kids and the journeymen (if you don't mind that term). We used the kids because they were cheap and could be moulded in our image. They had a good benchmark to judge themselves against though.

 

When we started to cut the wages, that top tier and the journeymen tier dropped in quality. Bolo, Gareth, Ugo, Jimmy, Yak and Viduka gave way to O' Neil, Tuncay, Huth (if he played), Mido, Alves. Further down for Dave Doriva read Mo Shawky.

 

With that happening around them the quality throughout the club dropped and when the last of the stars left; Schwarzer, Boat; that was it really. You going down boy.

 

While that was going on, we'd stopped really developing kids into the team like we had previously. Our squad for the first game in the Championship after relegation was: Coyne; McMahon, Wheater, Huth (Capt), Grounds, Yeates, Williams, Digard (O'Neil 42), A Johnson, Aliadiere, Emnes (Lita 65). Unused subs: Steele (gk); Hoyte, Taylor, Arca, Franks.

 

As well as that player base having dropped, we'd also lost the coaching skills and nous that we had around the first team squad. We had relatively inexperienced coaching staff and they didn't know how to bring players through.

 

I don't see it improving until we get back up and start to have a club culture with higher standards and a better class of player, as well as better coaching. For me, you sacrifice the here and now for the better long term future of the club and the players that we can bring through in the future. In effect you do what SMac did, you don't bring anyone through for a couple of years (if necessary) and then hope that you can bring them through later when we are in a position to do so.

 

If that means Williams, Fewster, whoever really suffers now then so be it to be honest.

 

I think the Steele issue is a separate issue to this. He's come through and is an established player who, for whatever reason, hasn't worked out under Karanka. Getting sent off in AK's first match won't have helped and then he's found himself behind Given, then Dimi and then latterly Mejias. I haven't seen enough of Mejias yet to make up my mind but it seems the faults he does have are the same that Steele seems to display. I'm not that bothered where either of them come from. If it's a mistake to go with Mejias, I'm pretty confident that AK will change it; as he seems to have done with every other position.

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I don't think much has changed to be honest in terms of what has come through.

 

I think the very best will always come through at a club like ours; we can't afford to do otherwise.

 

I think one of the things that helped the 2004 (or so) group was that they were coming in and playing with a better class of players who set higher personal standards to try and emulate.

 

One thing that might not always be appreciated is that they probably had the best coaching team at first team level that we've ever had.

 

As much as you can talk about money I think we've done okay in creating players from that period; Downing, Morrison, Cattermole, Wheater, Brunt, Grounds, Jones, Taylor, Johnson, Bennett, McMahon are all at the same level as us or above currently.

 

The job of the academy isn't just to make us money; it's about us not having to sign players at the same time so take the fees we got for any of the above and then factor in what you'd have needed to buy their quality in transfer fees as well.

 

I have a theory about where we started to slide. Under McClaren we had a top tier of players, the stars if you will. They were then backed up by the kids and the journeymen (if you don't mind that term). We used the kids because they were cheap and could be moulded in our image. They had a good benchmark to judge themselves against though.

 

When we started to cut the wages, that top tier and the journeymen tier dropped in quality. Bolo, Gareth, Ugo, Jimmy, Yak and Viduka gave way to O' Neil, Tuncay, Huth (if he played), Mido, Alves. Further down for Dave Doriva read Mo Shawky.

 

With that happening around them the quality throughout the club dropped and when the last of the stars left; Schwarzer, Boat; that was it really. You going down boy.

 

While that was going on, we'd stopped really developing kids into the team like we had previously. Our squad for the first game in the Championship after relegation was: Coyne; McMahon, Wheater, Huth (Capt), Grounds, Yeates, Williams, Digard (O'Neil 42), A Johnson, Aliadiere, Emnes (Lita 65). Unused subs: Steele (gk); Hoyte, Taylor, Arca, Franks.

 

As well as that player base having dropped, we'd also lost the coaching skills and nous that we had around the first team squad. We had relatively inexperienced coaching staff and they didn't know how to bring players through.

 

I don't see it improving until we get back up and start to have a club culture with higher standards and a better class of player, as well as better coaching. For me, you sacrifice the here and now for the better long term future of the club and the players that we can bring through in the future. In effect you do what SMac did, you don't bring anyone through for a couple of years (if necessary) and then hope that you can bring them through later when we are in a position to do so.

 

If that means Williams, Fewster, whoever really suffers now then so be it to be honest.

 

I think the Steele issue is a separate issue to this. He's come through and is an established player who, for whatever reason, hasn't worked out under Karanka. Getting sent off in AK's first match won't have helped and then he's found himself behind Given, then Dimi and then latterly Mejias. I haven't seen enough of Mejias yet to make up my mind but it seems the faults he does have are the same that Steele seems to display. I'm not that bothered where either of them come from. If it's a mistake to go with Mejias, I'm pretty confident that AK will change it; as he seems to have done with every other position.

 

top post Captain +1

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While that was going on, we'd stopped really developing kids into the team like we had previously. Our squad for the first game in the Championship after relegation was: Coyne; McMahon, Wheater, Huth (Capt), Grounds, Yeates, Williams, Digard (O'Neil 42), A Johnson, Aliadiere, Emnes (Lita 65). Unused subs: Steele (gk); Hoyte, Taylor, Arca, Franks.

 

 

Not sure what you mean by wed stopped developing kids,the team youve posted there has mcmahon,wheater,grounds,williams,johnson.steele taylor,franks in it

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While that was going on, we'd stopped really developing kids into the team like we had previously. Our squad for the first game in the Championship after relegation was: Coyne; McMahon, Wheater, Huth (Capt), Grounds, Yeates, Williams, Digard (O'Neil 42), A Johnson, Aliadiere, Emnes (Lita 65). Unused subs: Steele (gk); Hoyte, Taylor, Arca, Franks.

 

 

Not sure what you mean by wed stopped developing kids,the team youve posted there has mcmahon,wheater,grounds,williams,johnson.steele taylor,franks in it

 

 

Johnson, Taylor and McMahon were already well established from the previous group and as much as I am a fan of Williams, he's not homegrown.

 

Apart from that, look at the quality and tell me who else has properly established themselves since that group. Bennett and Gibson probably?

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I would love to see some stats detailing what happens to a typical year's intake of all of England's academies. The outright failure rate must be very high, that is the recruits never get to play professionally. Many will end up in the Conference and plenty will be destined for the lower leagues and only the cream of the crop will ever play in the Prem.

 

I simply don't know the figures. Does anyone?

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I think it's difficult to gauge and I think the rate of players dropping out has always been pretty high.

 

Depends what you mean by failing I guess.

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All those players have come through the academy in a 5 yr period in any language that is a fantastic result .

Every academy has its good yrs and bad yrs im sure the man utd academy have been trying for 20 yrs to produce another beckham scholes neville butt and giggs

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I personally dont think you can gauge the effectiveness of an acadamy purely on the players it produces from one season to the next. I believe in the "some are born with a footballing gift" theory, and as far as an acadamy goes, the best they can do is nuture the talent it has as best they can.

 

We had an amazing glut of youth players coming through towards the end of our premiership years, like Man Utd had the "class of 91" where a group of gifted players seemingly, almost by coincidence, come through together, leaving some to believe there's some kind of magic formula for "creating" such gems.

 

Southampton these pas couple of seasons have also produced a group of amazingly talented youngsters, but there is no acadamy that has consistantly produced group after group of "wonderkids".

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